Backyard Vineyard Organic Gardening 101

pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

I'm looking to grow some table grapes. I prefer seedless but am not adverse to seeded. Through preliminary investigation I have found out that some type of trellis system is required while the the grape vines are being trained. And that the trellis has to be built to suit the growing style of the vines for maximum production.

EX: Some species of grapes tend to grow in the UP direction while some tend to grow in the DOWN direction.

The trellis system goes in first so it would be nice to know which species grapes grow in which direction.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Is there any problem with cross-breeding if more than one species of grape is planted?

My vineyard is planned to be about 200 feet long with 4 to 7 rows spaced 6 to 8 feet apart.

Already know that I need to install a drip watering system along the vine row elevated about 18 inches off the ground to make weeding easier.

Don't know yet whether I need to grow a single or double trunk vine. I'm looking to plant the vines spaced 8 foot apart so each vine can have 4 foot cordons. Right now I'm thinking permenant cordons to lessen maintenance time.

What about preparing the soil and weed barriers and nourishment?

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

I checked out the pricing for some U-pik-IT vineyards. $0.79/lb. If they do it, $0.99/lb. Why on earth do storebought grape prices hover around $3.99/lb.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Should I start a new group for vineyards or will this string get enough exposure?

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trigger 17 years ago said:

I have have had grapes for 12 years . I grew concord grapes and strung them between ceder fence post on plastic covered wire. Mostly as a decorative living fence on one end of my( tiny )" by comparison" garden. I used young leaves for stuffed grape leaves and the grapes for jelly. The biggest pest were Japanese Beetles.
I finally cut them down this year.

I would visit a vineyard and take notes and photos, they usually give tours and let you sample their wine.

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solanaceae 17 years ago said:

Produce in the grocery store is expensive because you are paying for shipping (read trucking) along with the price of the actual produce. When gas goes up, the price of food goes up. That's why buying locally and supporting local growers makes such sense!

As for your planned vineyard, I'm sure your local DOA has some info specifically for your zone. You might also want to go to one the u-pick places and pick their brains. I know the apple place up here is happy to talk to home growers and give tips for growing your own.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Wish I could go to a vineyard for some hands-on knowledge. Closest place is hours and hours away and they grow "cluster grapes" Muskedynes. I'm looking for some "bunch grape" knowledge.

I am right on the edge of being too far down in the south to grow bunch grapes but not quite. The southern states have special disease and humidity problems but Florida is doing some great research on disease resistant rootstock.

I understand having enough markup to turn a profit. I also understand a reasonable profit margin. I don't understand anything over 100%. Volume in sales takes care of the greed factor.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Anyone have some thoughts on a two-arm kniffen system vs. a four-arm kniffen system?

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mystic_river1 17 years ago said:

Points, I found thie web site when I wanted to grow grapes.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/DG1103.html
Although it is for Minn. it has some wonderful points and great little pictures of both systems.
Mine I use for home use..beautiful concords.
I used PCV pipe about 4" in daiameter (6 pieces, 3 on each side and buriied them in a little concrete..then I crisscrossed more pipe across the top( about 14 ft by 8 ft(have a picnic table underneath) and have 2 more pipes located halfway between the 8 ft ends. I planted 9 plants in full sun and that was 8 years ago. It's about 10'high and I stand on the bench of the table to pick the grapes. The bunches just fall beautifully through the holes. I have a very small yard so did my best with what I had. I don't do anything with them but eat them.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Sounds like you have yourself a nice little arbor for some repast time. Are you saying you don't prune your vines back? Everything I've read says to strike a good balance between vine growth and fruit production for max yield.

Think maybe I'm trying to set up a small sample vineyard suitable for a production scale farm. I'm trying to see just what it takes to accomplish the task. Starting out on a 200' x 200' piece of land. I have 12 acres that can be converted once I work out all the production issues.

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mystic_river1 17 years ago said:

No I have never pruned the vines but have eaten more grapes standing on that table than ever got brought into the house! Just love 'em. Good luck with your vineyard..is a little bit of Italy for me.

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trigger 17 years ago said:

This web site may help is is from Alabama

http://wine.appellationamerica.com/wine-region/Alabama.html

I wish you lost of luck with your Vineyard adventure.

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jencathen 17 years ago said:

I would love to have this. Do grapes need a lot of sunlight because I have so many trees in my yard that I have only one spot for my little garden and it needs all the sunlight it can get. I would love one of those arbor grape things. That would be pretty and tasty.

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solanaceae 17 years ago said:

To the best of my knowledge all grape varieties require full sun. You might try doing a little research about growing grapes in your zone to see if there are any varieties particularly suited to where you are. I know up where I am there are only certain varieties I can grow.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Set your grape rows or arbor longitudinally to a north/south alignment and as far away from trees as possible. This orientation gives the grapes maximum sun exposure. It keeps the shadows off the grape vines, even from vine to vine if you have multiple rows.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

After months of off and on research I finally settled on a trellis type. A variation of the GDC trellis. GDC has a trellis shaped like a capital "T". My version has a second smaller cross member to the "T" about half way down the "T" to facilitate training to both sides of the trellis. Going to start out with three 160 foot rows. Vines will be planted every 4 feet along the row and alternately trained to each side of the "T" so I can get double the plants that would normally be in one row. So that means I will be able to plant 40 grapevines in each row.

Got half of the lumber in place for one row of the vertical members today. Set the two end posts in place at 7 feet high (3 in the ground) and run a string line between them to guide the setting of the row vertical members which are planted at 6 feet high (2 in the ground).

Bought a new set of teeth for my post hole digger which is tractor mounted. Even at that the digging was slow gong in this red rocky clay soil.

Should be able to finish installing the vertical members tomorrow and then a horizontal fence brace piece to each ends of the row to keep the end posts from leaning in in future years from the crop weight and tightening of the guide wires.

I'm documenting this vineyard, going in, so that others whom have never done one can learn from my learning experience.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

I installed the last two vertical posts in the trellis row. I also installed a 4 foot horizontal brace between the row end post and the first trellis post at each end of the trellis row. There is only 125 feet to each row instead of the 140 stated earlier. It means I will only get 29 vines to the row.

The horizontal braces are (2x4 pressure treated) attached at 5 feet above ground with joist hangers and level. Put a horseshoe nail at the outside bottom of the row end post and one at the top inside 5 foot mark on the first trellis post. Maybe they are not called horseshoe nails. Maybe they are called post nails. They are the “U” shaped nails pointy on both ends of the “U”. The nails will be used to hold brace/end post tensioning wire. Using 14 gauge single strand wire, wrap 2 or 3 times through both post nails creating a diagonal brace. Tension can be brought on this diagonal wire by placing a 2 foot piece of lumber in the middle of the wire and using the lumber as a crank to twist the wire on itself.
No tension should be placed on the wire just yet. The posts are freshly in the ground. It will take about 6 months and some rain to settle the dirt well and compact around the posts. Come spring time everything should be ready for tensioning.

Let me state, if I haven’t done before, that all wood used is pressure treated. The end posts are 4x4x10 planted 3 foot in the ground. The row posts are rough sawn landscape lumber approximately 2.5x3.5x8 planted 2 foot in the ground.

I need to do some explaining on how the “T” trellis should work. In effect, what it does is turn a single row of grapevines into a double row of grapevines, doubling the efficiency of the growing space.
There will be a wire attached all the way down the row at 18 inches from the ground. It will be used to hold the drip irrigation, with emitter spacing of 2 feet, off the ground and be out of the way for weeding. At 44 inches from the ground will be a second wire. It will be used to affix the vine trunk training rods. Centered on 50 inches up the posts will be a 2 foot horizontal 2x4 cross member with a wire attached to each top end of the cross member, extending down the length of the row. The vine will be trained vertically up to the 44 inch point, then trained over to the wire at the end of the cross member. Alternately going down the row, each vine plant will be trained to opposite sides of the cross member. This will give the vines a good straight trunk for almost 4 feet and then a rise of 8 inches while deviating a foot away from the center line. Each vine will then be trained onto the wire for 4 foot in each direction for the cordon arms.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

I installed the last two vertical posts in the trellis row. I also installed a 4 foot horizontal brace between the row end post and the first trellis post at each end of the trellis row. There is only 125 feet to each row instead of the 140 stated earlier. It means I will only get 29 vines to the row.

The horizontal braces are (2x4 pressure treated) attached at 5 feet above ground with joist hangers and level. Put a horseshoe nail at the outside bottom of the row end post and one at the top inside 5 foot mark on the first trellis post. Maybe they are not called horseshoe nails. Maybe they are called post nails. They are the “U” shaped nails pointy on both ends of the “U”. The nails will be used to hold brace/end post tension wire. Using 14 gauge single strand wire, wrap 2 or 3 times through both post nails creating a diagonal brace. Tension can be brought on this diagonal wire by placing a 2 foot piece of lumber in the middle of the wire and using the lumber as a crank to twist the wire on itself.
No tension should be placed on the wire just yet. The posts are freshly in the ground. It will take about 6 months and some rain to settle the dirt well and compact around the posts. Come spring time everything should be ready for tensioning.

Let me state, if I haven’t done before, that all wood used is pressure treated. The end posts are 4x4x10 planted 3 foot in the ground. The row posts are rough sawn landscape lumber approximately 2.5x3.5x8 planted 2 foot in the ground.

I need to do some explaining on how the “T” trellis should work. In effect, what it does is turn a single row of grapevines into a double row of grapevines, doubling the efficiency of the growing space.
There will be a wire attached all the way down the row at 18 inches from the ground. It will be used to hold the drip irrigation, with emitter spacing of 2 feet, off the ground and be out of the way for weeding. At 44 inches from the ground will be a second wire. It will be used to affix the vine trunk training rods. Centered on 50 inches up the posts will be a 2 foot horizontal 2x4 cross member with a wire attached to each top end of the cross member, extending down the length of the row. The vine will be trained vertically up to the 44 inch point, then trained over to the wire at the end of the cross member. Alternately going down the row, each vine plant will be trained to opposite sides of the cross member. This will give the vines a good straight trunk for almost 4 feet and then a rise of 8 inches while deviating a foot away from the center line. Each vine will then be trained onto the wire for 4 foot in each direction for the cordon arms.
The top cross member of the “T” trellis will be a 3.5 foot horizontal 2x4 affixed centered at 70 inches to the vertical member. On the top of the cross member will be 3 post nails on each side at 1, 4, and 10 inches from each end with wires run down the row. They will be used to support the shoots and canopy as they grow vertical, first positioning the cane over top of the wire at 10 inches and down and in between the outer two wires.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Seems to me the next step is to mark all the placement points on the vertical posts. Now we’ll get to see how well you sunk the posts. Mark the 6 foot point on each end post; tack a nail at those two points and run a very taunt string line between the two. Mark the 6 foot point on each row post going down the row line using the string line as a guide.
Next mark the 4 foot point on each end post and the row posts using the same procedure as above.
Next mark the 44 inch points using the same procedure.
And finally mark the 18 inch points using the same procedure.

The 18 inch points are going to have a wire run between them to support the drip irrigation line. Instead of nailing a post nail on each of the 18 inch points in which to run the wire, I thought there would be more support for the weight of the water and more surface area for the wire if I cut a hole in each of the line posts in which to route the wire. I think a 5/8ths inch hole will do nicely. The wire and tension mechanism will be put on later. First thing is to get the holes drilled.
The 44 inch points will need a hole also. Do not drill any holes in the end posts for either the 18 or 44 inch points, just the row posts!
If I get all that accomplished today I will be happy.

Well that wasn’t so hard! Went a lot quicker than I expected, even though I managed to have to drill through every wood not along the post row!

The next step, for tomorrow, is the preassembly of the long and short “T” arms.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Cut 2 foot arms for as many row posts as you have. Mark the center of the board to be centered on the row post. Pre-drill 4 holes for 3-inch wood screws and run the wood screws the depth of the board so they are positioned to pierce the post row wood at first turn. Nail a post nail one inch from each end of the cross member, oriented so you can see the hole through the post nail as you look down the row.
Cut 3.5 foot arms for as many row posts as you have. Mark the center of the board to be centered on the row post. Pre-drill 4 holes for 3-inch wood screws and run the wood screws the depth of the board so they are positioned to pierce the post row wood at first turn. Nail 3 post nails on each end of the cross-member, located at 1 inch and 4 inches and 10 inches from each end oriented the same as the post nails on the 2 foot arms.
Run the string line back up at the 7 foot line and recheck the row posts that they are plumb and centered under the string line. Some shifting could have occurred while drilling the holes on the lower portion of the posts. Add dirt and tamp down as necessary.
Position the long cross member with the top edge of the board at the 6 foot mark on the vertical post. Screw one screw in; bubble level and run the rest of the screws in.
Position the short cross member with the bottom edge of the board at the 4 foot mark on the vertical post. Screw one screw in; bubble level and run the rest of the screws in.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Ran out of post nails today. Ran out to the store and found out they are called post staples. Picked up some vine training stakes too. They are 6 foot rods that will be shoved in the ground about 2 feet for support and tied to the 44 inch wire run.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Have the end post cross-members prefabbed. Have some errands to run this morning and it is supposed to be hit and miss showers today. I would like to vote FOR showers today. It would help soften up the soil just a little to make my post hole digging a little easier. We'll see how things shape up this afternoon when I get back home.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Trellis is looking good. It is time to make cross-members for the end posts. In order to keep the wire lines in an even line it will be necessary to mount the end post cross-members horizontally centered on the row post cross-members top edge. So the top “T” end post cross-member gets centered on the 6 foot mark and the bottom “T” end post cross-member gets centered on the 52 inch mark, or in my case 51.5 inch mark because I'm using landscape timber instead of a 4x4.
The end post cross-members must be mounted on the outside of the end posts and must be stouter than the row post cross-members to take the strain of the tension devices on the wire lines. A 4x4 is great but I have an abundance of landscape timbers that I will use. They are rough sawn 2.5x3.5.
Cut the end post cross members the same length as in the row post cross-members. Nail the post staples in the same position as in the row post cross-members. Pre-drill the screw holes on the same plane as the post holes. Ensure the screws are long enough to get good wood in both the cross-member and end post. In my case the screw will be 5 inches. If I can’t get the screws that long, I will have to put bolts through to secure the wood. As in the row cross-members, run one screw in, bubble level and run the other screws in. Couldn’t find any 5 inch wood deck screws, 3.5 inch is the longest. Instead of the bolts, I thought I would countersink the heads of the 3.5 inch wood deck screws an inch deep in into the cross-member. That will give me 2 inches of screw into the vertical member. I can always go back and put the bolts in there if the screws don’t work out. Put a piece of tape on the countersink drill bit to gauge the depth of the hole as you drill.

Rain kept running me inside today but I finally did get the end post cross members installed, save one. Made a bad measurement and will fix it tomorrow.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Rained hard for an hour before sunup so I'll have to wait a day before digging any more holes so the water can soak in a little. Rototilling or digging holes can cause a clay pot effect to the detriment of my future vines. A days rest is nice.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Remeasured and made corrections to the last cross member and installed it. The ground is still to moist to drill. Waiting another day. Maybe I can get a head start on making the cross members for the second two rows of trellis this afternoon. Have some chicken and rice in the oven that needs tending to this morning.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Prefabbed the lower shorter cross members for the second two post rows.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Before we put the wire and tension devices in, we need to roto-till the row and pre-drill the ground at 4 foot intervals along the row where the vines will be placed for good root penetration. Cover the hole up and insert a vine training rod to mark the position. Guess I could have roto-tilled the row and garden area ahead of time but I didn’t because I had some pre-existing posts already sticking up in the rows.

I'm sweating like a pig at a Bbq. It's tiring for this old fat boy getting up and down every four feet to move the dirt around the vine training rods. Made sure to score the side walls of the planting holes with a hand fork to prevent any clay pot effect. The ground is just barely dry enough to drill holes. I could have waited another day. Maybe after lunch and a rest.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Planted the second row end posts this evening. Instead of boring you with the details of setting up the second and third row, I'll walk you through installing the support wires for the first row. The rest of it is just a duplication. I have to get all three rows installed so I can rototill. Once the row is prepared, keep water on it to promote any vegetation growth along with a herbicide, organic or not, to kill the weeds and grass.

Have been doing some research on landscape fabric. I suppose if you really want to set the vineyard up beautiful, a strip of landscape fabric is the best way to combat the weeds. But then the fabric has to be covered with some type of mulch to seal out any light from reaching the dirt underneath. Don't know that I'm all that excited to layout money for fabric and mulch.

The wire should be 12 gauge high-tinsel strength single strand wire for the two lines on the small cross-member because they will support the weight of the vines and cordons. And 12 gauge for the two inside lines on the large cross-members because they will support the weight of the fruiting canes and foliage. The rest can be 14 gauge single strand wire. On the other hand, I have a mile of 14 gauge wire and intend to use it for all of the wire runs.
The wire tension device I am using looks like the ratchet for the crank on the front end of a boat trailer, albeit smaller.
At the 18 inch mark on one end post, nail a post nail vertically. Feed a length of wire through the eyelet and crimp it onto itself with enough slack in the loop that it will be self centering when tensioned. Loop the other end through the tension device hole and crimp it onto itself. The mounting hole in the tension device bends the wire sharply and I decided to put a piece of clear plastic tubing through the mounting hole in which to run the wire to lessen the bend and keep the wire from breaking at some future time.
Run a wire through the 18 inch holes down to the other end post; install a nail post vertically; run the wire through the eyelet and crimp it back on itself leaving enough of a loop to be self centering. At the tension device end of the run, cut the wire long enough that it will wrap around the tension device spool a couple of times before it becomes taught. The drip irrigation can now be affixed to the 18 inch wire run.
Install a wire run at the 44 inch mark in the same manner as the 18 inch mark, keeping the tension device at the same end. Keep all tension devices at the same end. This is the vine trunk training wire. Alternate the training stakes to both sides of the wire going down the row and affix the stakes to the wire. When the vines do finally arrive, and start growing, train them up the side of the stake the wire is attached to so the wire will not bite into the trunk as it grows in girth.
Install 2 wire runs on the shorter cross-member, threading the wire through the row post eyelets, with the post nails on the end post oriented horizontally. The vines are trained from the 44 inch point over to these wires which will support the weight of the vines and cordons. Each vine is trained alternately to one side of the small “T” and then the other side. Cordons are grown out 4 foot in each direction from a single vine so that there is an 8 foot spread per vine.
Install 6 wire runs on the longer top cross-member, threading and tensioning as above. The two inside wires support the weight of the shoots. As the shoots grow they are positioned over top of the second wires and under the third wires where they are left to droop. The second wires hold a little weight of the canopy and the third wires are just a guide and do not need a tension device. They can be affixed to the end post with a chain link and a hook. We might be able to get away with using a chain link and a hook for the second set of wires too.

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pointsevenout 17 years ago said:

Finished the second two trellis rows today. Now to switch over to the cultivator and rototill in between the rows to control the weeds. The tractor fits nicely between the rows with just a couple of inches either way. Tractor lost a couple of the couplings for the 3-point hitch on the first pass between rows with the rototiller and I can't find the. The lost parts are well buried in the soil, so off to the tractor store to buy some couplings.

Tomorrow I will finish the rototill then start to string the support wires for the trellises.

Got the final count for grape vines. I will have room for 93 vines.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

It was an unusually cold November and I didn't get any more work done on the trellises. I have one trellis complete with two more to go. And December was a very rainy month. We received a couple hundredths less that a foot of water.

This is the second 24 hours we have had without any rain but expecting some more tomorrow. So I was able to wander around outside testing the soil. We have 4 grapevines that started this whole vineyard thing and it was a great opportunity to cut back those vines.

I really don't need any more plants, after the 100 new plants come in this spring, but decided to try my hand at growing some cuttings. I was able to cull 9 cuttings from the trimmings. Have them bagged in moist soil and buried upsidedown. Trying to allocate the care and feeding of the wannabe plants to mother to give her something to do on a daily basis out in the yard. It will be a good training experience for both her and me.

Dirt is still way muddy. I need more than a couple of days of dry time so I can get back out to building the other two trellises.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

This past week has almost been springlike weather. Gave me a chance to get back out in the garden. Finished up the wiring of the second row of the grapevine trellis and got the elevated sprinkler line installed. One more row to do but I doubt I'll get it finished before late tonight or tomorrow when the rain is supposed to move in.

I can see a lot of sink holes where the soil has compacted down around the trellis posts from all the past months rain, even though I used a tamper around them. It's a good thing making the posts more solid in the ground, but it means I'll be hauling some more dirt in my future.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Finished pulling half of the trellis row wires for the third and final row as well as installed the elevated drip lines. I'm headed in doors just in time to miss a t-storm.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

I'm almost happy for a while. All three trellis rows are complete. The drip irrigation is in place. Last thing to do is add soil to spots where the rain has compressed the ground down below grade. Then the wait begins for the grapevines to arrive.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Received e-mail notification the grapevines are due to ship the middle of this week. My 4 existing grapevines are just barely starting bud swell so I think spring is on its way. Just hoping there is no killing frost around Easter this year.

Looking forward to getting the vines in the ground so I can leak check the drip irrigation and get some more pictures in the grapevine pictures recipe page.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Received bare root stock grapevines today. Made up labels for each plant out of an old cheap plastic window blind. So much cheaper than buying the labels the outdoor garden area of the local handy dandy store. Here's the list of the grapevines:
20 Mars
10 Lakemont
10 Suffolk Red
20 Neptune
20 Jupiter
10 Alden
10 Sheridan

It rained night before last 1" and last night 3" I think. Don't have the official totals today but the ground is well drowned. More rain coming tonight and maybe tomorrow. Can't get out there to try to plant the vines in that kind of muck. Will have to wait for a drying spell for a few days.

Vines were shipped in moist shredded newspaper wrapped in plastic. That's good. They can stay there for a little while. Besides the average last frost date for this area is coming up in two weeks. That will put me out past the killer Easter frost we had a couple of years ago.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Mother has been out planting flowers for the last two days but she is working with the highest point on the property as I am not. Think she is trying to goad me into planting the grapevines. But I know better. We have a lot of rain coming in the next 48 hours and where I'm working, the ground is still mucky. All the same I am still anxious to get out there and get the job done. But I'm holding my horses for another week.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Twenty vines in the ground. These are the Jupiter seedless vines. Not taking a picture of the progress. Looks like sticks in the mud. But progress is progress. Expecting tornadic activity tomorrow. Let's see if they get ripped out of the ground.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Lots of rain and no tornadoes out of the storm system. Let me qualify that. No tornadoes here. There was an F-1 ten miles to the south-east that tore through a mobile home park. That's close enough.

Enough rain on the ground, it will take several days to soak in. That's OK because Monday and Tuesday nights we are supposed to freeze. So I'll gear up to start planting again Wednesday or Thursday.

Here's hoping this last frost ushers in spring.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Planted 20 Mars seedless vines this Wednesday. Going to be a beautiful day tomorrow but the psoriasis on my knees is very tender this evening. So I doubt any will get planted tomorrow.
You should see the roots on the Mars vines. They are all two to three foot long if they are an inch. I was going to trim them up some but the destructions say not to. I'm thinking the nursery grew the cuttings in hydroponics because the roots all come out of the cuttings in one direction instead of a good spread around the cuttings. I am concerned that the vines will not have enough all around support when they grow larger and the wind starts pushing on them.

Going to rain Thursday night and Friday. Maybe time enough for my knees to feel better.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

OK. Talked myself into planting only 10 vines tomorrow, so I've got them soaking in a root stimulator overnight.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Moving right along. Planted 10 Suffolk Red vines today. Waiting on the rain for the next couple of days. Half the vineyard is planted.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Put 20 Neptune seedless in the ground today. These are the only grafted vines I have. The trick with grafted vines is to keep the graft union about 2" above the soil level to keep the graft union from growing roots and effectively nullifying the root stock graft.

Sore knees again at the end of the day today but need to get 10 more vines in the ground while the weather is still good. Think 20 more vines is pushing too much on the knee pain level.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

I need to go back to counting school. Was supposed to have 7 extra vines. Wound up with 17 extra vines. All the seedless are planted and I have 3 holes left to fill. And I can plant 2 more in a couple of holes in my original vineyard where two plants have not come back this year.

I also have those cuttings that are still buried. Think about 10 or so. So 25 plants that need a pot. Suddenly I find myself inundated with extra plants. No time to make another trellis. Time to go talk with the neighbors to see if they would like some grape vines. But I'll get them potted first.

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mbeards2 16 years ago said:

I've been following your vineyard building story. We have a about 24 vines. My husband likes to make home-brew beer and thought making wine from our own grapes would be fun. It took about three years for the vines to finally bear enough fruit to do anything with. He made one batch of wine and decided that beer is a lot easier to make than wine and hasn't made any wine since.... I don't like to see good fruit go to waste so I made grape jelly out of the juice. That made a LOT of jelly. :-)

We still tend the vines, though. Maybe he'll decide to give it try again.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Getting a lot of rain today. Good for the new vines, bad for digging new holes to plant.

Better get started preparing some pots. These last 20 vines have been in the storage box a while now.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Oh my! mbeards2. I bet that did make a lot of jelly. I have more than I know what to do with just off of 4 vines.

Have 10 pots prepared and some vines soaking tonight.

Vines do not like wet feet. To prepare the pots I fill the bottom with drainage rock up to the point where the pots normally hold water, then cover the rock with landscape cloth and several handfuls of dirt. The landscape cloth keeps the fine dirt and silt from getting into and clogging the rock and preventing the pot from draining proper. Also keeps the roots from growing into the rock. The water should wick-up as needed.

Each vine needs 1" of water/week. I went out and bought an auto timer for the drip irrigation line and had it all programmed up to water every day for 10 minutes per my square footage formula. But upon more research I found I might need to do a longer deeper watering once or twice a week.

All is ready for planting in the boxes tomorrow and some leak checking done on the drip irrigation lines.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Ten pots potted. Ten more prepared. It's a whole lot easier potting the vines in good rich soil than digging holes etc.
Didn't get anything done on the drip irrigation, maybe tomorrow or the next day.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Ten more pots potted. All the bought vines are in some type of dirt. Now to dig up the cuttings I took from my original vines and see if I can't callous them. Time for a nap. Maybe I'll get to leak checking the drip irrigation today too.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Butt end of vine cuttings are dug up and soaking in the sun to produce callous. Drip irrigation is all leak checked. Had to fix about 6 to 12 problems.
A lot of progress today. Next up, I need to bury the irrigation lines that are laying on the ground, now that they are leak free. Might save that for tomorrow. Still have 5 more holes to dig so I can transplant some of the potted vines into the earth. I don't have to be rushed about that since the vines are already potted. A little breathing room is nice.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Just too dang industrious today. Irrigation lines are buried and area in between trellis rows is tilled up. Hopefully in a month I can add some pictures of the vine growths.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Been out in the heat of the day digging out two old dead vines and their posts. I'll start earlier in the morning tomorrow digging the holes for the new vines.
Did an once over again on the drip irrigation lines. Think there is one leak left that I'll have to dig down to to repair. Water usage is 1.5gpm for 75 minutes once a week.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Irrigation turned on for the second day in a row so I'll have to figure out how to do the programming correctly for an once a week watering. Did a little cleaning up. Cut the extra wires from the old vines and took them to the recycle place along with a few other metal things dotting the back yard with no useful purpose any more. Going to be too hot soon to do any digging so I'll save that chore for in the morning.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Finally the new grapevines have enough greenery on them to be seen in some pictures, so added them to the grapevine trellis recipe. Been raining for two weeks now. Hard to get much accomplished. Still have 5 vines to put in the ground and maybe another dozen that are potted orphans.

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trigger 16 years ago said:

Points I am so proud you have been so diligent and productive with your grape vine endeavor.
You have done a tremendous amount of research and taken that research to the highest level of productivity.
We all appreciate your effort that you have posted here.
Bravo and thank you.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

I appreciate your kudos but take it easy with those compliments. You're making my bird blush

Project is not done. There are three years of future progress to show and now I think we are getting into pest and disease control, which is what prompted you to start this organic gardening group. I'll need your help keeping it organic. I have the tendency to want to grab the chemical stuff. Going to be battling Japanese beetles and cut worms to begin with so I'll be looking for a good organic insecticide. Then I'll be looking for a good organic herbicide for getting into close quarters to the vines. I could be out there weeding for four hours a day or more without some assist.

Maybe next year we'll worry about the organic fungicides.

But it's nice to be able to show you the first vestiges of my vineyard after just shy of a year since the project started.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Just went back and read the entire string again. I didn't say before but I'm sad that you had to whack down your vineyard, trigger. Were the Japanese beetles so invasive you opted to get rid of the vines or was it something else?

And to everyone else that has contributed or made comments to this string. You have not been ignored. I research all suggestions and thank you for your comments.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Just got a couple of posts in the ground and the dry concrete dumped in the hole before the rain started. This single wire trellis is to replace a row of two grapevines of mother's that finally gave it up. It's probably overkill that I cemented the posts in the ground. The rain will come and set up the concrete as it works its way into the ground as well as sucking up existing ground moisture.

The vines will have to wait for another day. I ran away from the rain.

I haven't been out to the main vineyard in a couple of days. A quick trip shows the vines are taking off well. I was getting ready to start tying the vines to the training rods and noticed the vines are doing that themselves with those little tendrils that reach out for something to grab hold of. But I'll get out there and tie them anyway just so I can get a close up inspection of every vine.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

After a very short nap the storm went away. Only enough rain to run me into the house.

Since the rain is holding off I planted two vines. They are Alden vines. Supposed to be huge grapes, running about 5 grams each but they are seeded.

Very high humidity today. Sweat won't evaporate so it's running off my face like a ducks hind quarters. After another break for me and still no rain, I just might have the energy to plant the remaining three holes in the new vineyard.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

All holes are filled with vines. Sky clouded up and cleared off 4 times today. I am ready for the sky to unzip. Meteorologist says it should be like a cow pissin' on a flat rock. I need that rain to well heel the new plants so they don't go into to bad of a transplant shock.

I hear thunder and the sky is darkening once again.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

The sky is the cow and Athens proper is the flat rock. The deluge missed us by less than a mile. If it doesn't rain tonight I'll have to whip out my hose and water the plants myself.

Looks like the cuttings I took last year are not callusing up at all. A failed experiment but I can let them keep trying for another two weeks while I attend to other things in the back yard. Really don't need any more grape vines but had to try my hand at the cuttings. More research is forthcoming.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

There is one Suffolk Red vine that has a broken main stem. Think the deer have been nosing around to see what I have been doing. Fortunately I have a replacement vine for it.

Tied up some of the vines today that were wandering too far from the training posts. The others are latching on to the training posts with their tendrils nicely.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Replacement for that Suffolk Red will not be in until next spring. Will have to try to tie the stem up securely to see if it will mend itself. The broken part is growing leaves.

Laid down 30 cubic feet of pine bark mulch on the old vineyard plants. Normally I get red stained mulch but I'm squeezing quarters so I got the cheap stuff. Will get it all raked out nice and smooth tomorrow. All that's left on the old vineyard, don't know why I call it a vineyard it's only 4 vines, is to add a single training wire for the cordon arms at 5 foot high for the two new vines and a couple of vertical training rods.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Sprayed one row of the new vineyard with herbicide yesterday. Sprayed another row today. Sorry to inform you it is not an organic blend. Couldn't wait to get all the ingredients together and don't like the expense of the organic blend. At its cheapest it is thirteen to thirty times as expensive as its chemical counterpart.

Haven't seen any yellowing down of the weeds and grass in the first row but I think it takes a couple of days. Hopefully I only sprayed the unwanted greenery and not the vines. I was very careful putting the spray down. Time will tell.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

All is looking deadly for the unwanted grasses and weeds. Used a very cheap piece of 4x8 chipwood ripped in half to make a 4x4 solid fence to put up against the plant so I could spray without getting any of the spray on the plant. It worked well. That chipboard doesn't even smell of wood. It smells of the glue that holds it together. Noxious on the drive home. Took about 5 days for the unwanted greenery to die back.

Going to rip another foot off the fence to make it a more wieldy 3x4 fence. Will get the third row sprayed tomorrow. I'm de-rusting and relubicating my work clamps today. They live outside near the sawhorses and get crusty every now and then. Wish I had a nice work house.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Read somewhere on one of the vineyard sites to leave or plant grass in between the vine rows to keep rains from washing too much dirt away. I don't really have a 100% nice grass in between the rows. It's just what grew up. It's a combination of Bermuda and other grasses and weeds. Just wondering if I keep the stuff cut nice and short, so it won't go to seed, if it will serve the same purpose as a nice grass. It sure looks pretty with the in-the-row grasses and weeds dying back. Maybe I can get a couple more pictures put up in a couple of days.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Have posted a couple more pictures in the "grapevine trellis pictures" recipe of the weeds dying back in the rows. I'm thinking on spreading some grass seed in between the rows so the grass can grow up and crowd out the weeds. Right now it looks sparse but will grow in.

Vines have about doubled in size. Will have to get out there and tie up some more of the vines to the training rods and spray herbicide on the remaining row.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Haven't been out in the vineyard for over three weeks. This past month has been the month of the Japanese beetle. They tore up a lot of plants. It's my fault for not mixing up an insecticide.

Got out there this overcast morning, weeded and tied up one row of vines to their training rods. Took 3 hours. Some of the vines are very damaged. The tendrils are shriveled up and the growth is stunted. I hope they will come back next year. Also have a heavy infestation of aphids on a couple of plants. Going to mix up a batch of chemical and organic insecticides.

The organic will be 1/4c ground jalapeno pepper and 1/4c ground cayenne pepper and 1/4c ground Japanese beetle and 1/4c cooking oil and 1/2gal water. Boil the solution with a lid on. Cool and drain the solution through a fine mesh. Put in a spray bottle for the plants.

The theory is to leave a very hot taste in the critter's mouths and leave a smell of rotting corpses, to the beetles that is. The oil is a sticker for more dwell time on the plant.

The middle row of the vineyard seems more grown up. Maybe the bugs get to the outside rows first and haven't run out of food to move on to the middle row. Whatever the reason, when I get out there to weed and tie up the row, I will inspect it a lot closer.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Middle row is tied up, and part of the third row. Back to the store for more tie-up tape. In all the rows, some of the vines are only 3 feet and others are almost 6 feet. I have the ingredients but have not yet made the bug spray.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Well, my oh my, the tie up is done on all three rows for the most part. Now I go back over the rows to tie up what I missed and what came untied and what the wind jostled loose. Then I'm ready to spray. The Japanese beetles are all but gone for this year but I still have aphids to contend with.

The vines that are over 4 foot tall get tied over from the training rod toward or to the short "T" cross bar at 5 foot alternately to each side to start training the trunks for the double density designed trellis.

Looks like it took me two weeks to tie up the rows. It's not that it is all that much work, my industriousness is suspect.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Have been spraying the vines for aphids for 3 weeks now. Just went through and tied up two rows before I got tired. Haven't seen an aphid so far and the stumpy vines that had aphid infestation have started growing again nicely. There are only a handful of vines now that haven' reached the 4 foot mark on the training rods.

Have a lot of vines that are tied from the 4 foot mark over to the 5 foot training wire and then dangling down again to almost the ground.

After I get the last row retied up I think I will prune back the very longest vines to just outside the 5 foot training wire to start some lateral shoot growth.

Dare I dream that those more vigorous vines will grow some 4 foot cordons along the 5 foot training wire before the frost dies the vegetation back? Think we can get the first frost around here in mid October. That's two months from now.

I'm not trying to rush the fruit production. Any fruit next year gets nipped off to help the roots and cordon arms grow.

Almost ready for a couple more pictures.

I definitely start the insecticide spraying program earlier next year.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

Finished tying up the vines. Going to prune back some of the vines that are lapped over the 5 foot training line and drooping almost to touching the ground.

Grinding and gnashing of teeth ensued after I informed mother my plans for the vines.

Going to take a couple of pictures before the whacking begins.

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pointsevenout 16 years ago said:

The deed is done. All the long vines that are lapped over the 5 foot training line and more than half way back down to the ground have been lopped off just past the 5 foot training line to promote lateral shoot growth. By pruning back those vines with high vigor, I might be able to grow some 4 foot laterals before the first frost.

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pointsevenout 15 years ago said:

Wow. It's been 4 months. 'Tis the time to do more pruning. All is in hibernation nicely for the winter.
Selected the best growth vines to train for the trunk and pruned everything else back. Had to prune back 3 vines all the way to the starting point and give them another go at growing. One of the vines was way to twig like and the other two had died back half way. All three were in the general area of each other. I'm suspecting I was not nurturing enough with the insecticide. So a more aggressive spray program is in order and a call to the nursery for advice.

One row is pruned. Two to go. Need more tie-up tape to secure the chosen trunks.

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pointsevenout 15 years ago said:

No pruning around in the vineyard today. I'd be wading around hip deep in mud. It's fortunate I got one row done yesterday.

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pointsevenout 15 years ago said:

Second row is pruned. Expecting another hard rain tomorrow. Might take another week to get back out there.

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pointsevenout 15 years ago said:

Mman iit's ccold oout ththere! Would be ok if the wind wasn't blowing.

Got one row all trussed up and cold have done another 'cept for the wind.

Thinking about starting another string for this spring. This one is getting long in the tooth. It will be easier on the eye if I do this in blocks by the year. Will add links forward and back to make it negotiable.

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pointsevenout 15 years ago said:

It's been a year of growth for my fledgling vineyard. Everything is pruned and tied up in anticipation of spring. Had to prune way back to the beginning about 3 to 4 vines in each row and give them a new start at growing.

Going to start a new string for the new years growth. Here is the link to hop forward:

Backyard Vineyard 2

Hope I passed on good information for the starting of a vineyard.

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