An "etiquette" Question Help Group

An "etiquette" question

keni 13 years ago

this is not an accusation, a complaint or a suggestion, it's just a question :)

Does GR have any type of requirement or recommendation written in it's TOS or FAQs for recipes or photos that aren't originals, rather borrowed or copied from other sites or publications?

I've been asked this question a lot with new members coming over from another site and joining The Refugees, and I've always just offered my own opinion that it seems sharing recipes like that would be okay, but credit must be given. We even had a couple members who had recipes posted on other sites that were copied here, word for word, including the "intro" and the photo from there and not given credit.

My recipes are either my originals(or as close as anyone can get to an original these days ;) or long time family recipes, so I don't post from other sites, personally, but I got the question again, recently, and it made me curious as to whether there is a policy posted.

Again, just a question, when you get time...

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keni 13 years ago said:

ooops...tried to post a thank you pic, but it didn't take, so...thank you!

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kimmer 13 years ago said:

That's a very good question Keni and I have often wondered that myself. I tend to share your opinion. If you use a picture or recipe that is not your own you should give credit where credit is due if you can. However, I do have many recipes that may be nicely typed or just scribbled down in my collection and quite honestly not remember where it came from. Could have even come up with it myself years ago. I have only posted one picture and even gave hubby credit since he was the one that took it, lol.

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jkirk 13 years ago said:

I have had the same thoughts as Keni and Kimer. Also, do any copywrite laws apply to recipes? I don't know the answer.

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frankieanne 13 years ago said:

I've wondered about that, too. I remember someone here once posted a recipe from Elise's "Simply Recipes" blog. They obviously cut and pasted her recipe as it was word for word - including her photo! - and did not give Elise any credit at all. I thought about privately messaging the poster, but I wasn't sure what the rules were. Although I personally think what the poster did was horribly wrong - if at least morally!

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kristopher 13 years ago said:

The goal is to have people share what they are cooking. The nature of recipes (very finite number of unique ingredients for a dish) means that you are going to find similar recipes all over the place (and this is why a recipe cannot be copyrighted). We strongly frown upon people posting recipes they haven't made themselves. If we could automatically detect this type of behavior we would prevent it.

As far as photos, people are not allowed to post photos they don't have permission to. They must own the photo, use a properly licensed photo w/attribution, or have direct permission from the owner. Again, unfortunately there isn't an automated way to determine who owns what. How we handle this is on a case-by-case basis, usually as a result of the owner contacting us. It's absolutely rubbish that people use others' stuff without proper permission. That being said, some people simply don't understand the rules, which is why we are going to add an extra note under the photo upload form this week. That should eliminate all inadvertent activities and leave us to focus on the deliberate abuses.

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jkirk 13 years ago said:

Thank you Kris. That answers my question(s). Have a great Holiday Weekend!

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frankieanne 13 years ago said:

Thank you, Kristoph, for clearing that up and for what the intention of the site was meant for. Appreciate it very much.

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frankieanne 13 years ago said:

Whoops. Kristopher. So sorry. I work with a Christoph. Getting confused in my old age. :) Have a great weekend.

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kimmer 13 years ago said:

Thanks Kristopher. That does clear things up.

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lilliancooks 13 years ago said:

Very good question Keni!

Yes...I'm glad you cleared that up also! =)

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borinda 13 years ago said:

Having known both publishers and cookbook authors... this resolution is so appropriate, respectful of other's efforts and sources of income, and just plain old more polite. Way to go!!!

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keni 13 years ago said:

Thank you for the answer, Kristopher, and for everyone else who answered or was confused or concerned, too. :)

I just had noticed a couple "featured" recipes that were direct copies, photos and all, from other sites and it finally made me ask. We had talked about it within our groups or privately for a long time, just trying to do what was "right", but we never had any confirmation.

Like I said, it doesn't bother me, personally, cus while, as we both mentioned, it's tough to be totally original, I've never copied another recipe or it's photo. The only photos I've posted that isn't mine are specific brand products to show an ingredient(copycat Thin Mints) and a public use cast iron set that I put on a my cast iron post.

But, then, I'm over the top "do the right thing", sometimes, and I know it. I don't even just google search anymore, I use the advance search for the "labled for resuse" photos on the off chance I am looking for a photo for anything. :) It's a problem, I know, I'm in meetings.

Anyway, thanks, again, for the answers!!

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keni 13 years ago said:

I just considered something I figured I'd toss out... I know you also said "featured" recipes are being tweaked, but I'm still a lil nervous about seeing those that are not only not originals, but, as above, are copied directly from other sites, including photos, being on the front page with no credit or permission.... I know if I had a blog and happened upon GR and saw one of my recipes/photos listed as "featured" but with no credit to myself, I'd be sending you a message...politely, of course. ;)

Anyway, I was wondering if, at the recipe submitting portion of our program, you could add one of those "permission" boxes..... confirming it's not a direct copy of a recipe OR photo from another site or person? I know that doesn't guarantee honesty, but I think it does lessen your(the site's) responsibility, doesn't it? And, it gives you more of a "right" to remove those recipes, or photos, especially, if they are found to be copied without permission, doesn't it? I know, technically, y'all have the right to do anything you want with any of our recipes or photos, but so far, this site has been far and above more "member friendly" than any I've seen, so I don't expect to see it become a heavily policed site... thank goodness. :)

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kristopher 13 years ago said:

Yeah, as mentioned, we are going to add a bullet point under the photo upload that expressly talks about ownership. The goal of featured recipes is to highlight photos taken by members, but again, there is no algorithmic way to know who took what. The extra note on the upload section should take care of all this.

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keni 13 years ago said:

Thank you, again, Kristopher, as always. :)

The extra note, at least, will do two things, maybe... let people who seem to always, or nearly always, copy/paste recipes and photos from other sites without credit know this isn't really the goal, here, and is, in fact, frowned upon, at the very least, and isn't considered "accepted" cyber manners, and #2 it helps remove GR just a bit from the equation if, as I mentioned someone who has recipes or photos copied stumbles on them and is unhappy with it. Especially photos. I never have to worry about it, none of my photos are any anyone would wanna borrow, anyway, but, as I said, I've seen more than a couple make "feature" and I've seen on other recipe sites how ferocious people can be about 'stolen' photos. I don't wish that wrath on anyone. hehehehe

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ladychablis 13 years ago said:

I was wondering about this myself......thanks for setting it straight. I do give credit to wherever I got my recipe in the intro. However, if I have the recipe cut out and put into my recipe book, who knows where it came from?!!! Yikes! I hope I don't offend anyone!

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keni 13 years ago said:

Personally, I don't think it's the recipes as much as it's the photos, Ladychablis... as we've mentioned, it's impossible to say a recipe is totally original...many of mine are a compilation of various recipes I've seen or eaten to suit our tastes or because I thought of something else to add or a different way to prepare it, etc...and, I have a 'recipe' for boiled or grilled corn, for example...I didn't make those up, or give credit to whoever did(Native Americans come to mind for the grilling, at least ;), but I just wanted to put them here because I have a lot of people ask me things like "How do YOU cook/make ______?" So, I added recipes like that just to help out.

When I post an "original" recipe, which I try to do a huge majority of the time, I google the ingredients and make sure there isn't one posted JUST like it online and I didn't know it. :) That actually happened once...I think the only thing different was a bit of lemon juice, and I was SO proud of that "creation".... I didn't bother posting it as my spirits and ego deflated. hehehehe... I don't think anyone expects every submitter to do that, and I don't think they should, again, I think it's one of those "reminders" is all...

This has been a HUGE topic of discussion in the past couple years on this site, privately, and on other sites, and I've been asked about it so many times, that's why I'm open in my personal opinion and why I mentioned it to begin with... the site grows daily, so I figured it was going to be addressed, somehow.

Also, as for those we've scribbled down or have been handed down but don't know where they originally came from... we can just say that too. :) "This is a recipe I've had in my box for ages, but I don't known where it came from, originally" or "My Aunt Sally gave me this one when I was knee high to a grasshopper"... there's no right or wrong, I don't think, just whatever you're comfortable with, in regards to the recipes themselves.

The photos are a different issue, really.

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ladychablis 13 years ago said:

I felt that way, too, about infringing on a recipe.! I don't need to worry about pictures, though, Keni. I don't know how to do that!! lol
I just figured out how to upload my pics to my new computer! (or is it download/) oh well.
But if we upload a recipe that's already been on the site somewher, I feel that's o.k., because maybe someone wasn't able to come across it in another spot. e.g. a group.
Thanks for getting back to me, have a good one.

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peetabear 13 years ago said:

I would like to comment on Kristopher's statement...".We strongly frown upon people posting recipes they haven't made themselves"...

i have posted many recipes that I have not tried for various reasons...

1) it is a recipe that one of the members has asked me if I have...

2) it is a recipe that has a special ingredient that a cooking friend loves.

3) it is a recipe that looks sooo good but I can not personal eat...but I know others here can...

4) but especially I post recipes that I haven't tried because I have to be gluten free....and there are many other members here that have the same problem... I have a lot of recipes from many sources that I post because if they wait until I tried them all...........well lets say they will be waiting quite awhile!!! LOL by posting the recipes someone else can try the recipe and then we can discuss how it turned out... being GF means that everything we ever learned about flours and baking has to be relearned....it helps us make better tasting goodies that we can eat safely.

oh I have another reason... I have boxes of wads of paper cut out from who knows where that I would love to be able to access so I can try... but as it seems when I find the eggplant recipes, it is Christmas and when I have a garden full of eggplants I have the Easter recipes...!!!

I also love that others post recipes that I do not have access to... I wish I could have all cookbooks and magazines...but........ that being said... I feel betrayed if someone posts a recipe and photo and does not give credit or tell me if they have tried it....especially if I have commented on it and then I see the recipe out on the web or in a magazine...

I hope maybe you would reconsider the policy or make some quide lines so we can post 'other' recipes...

thank you Kristopher for thinking about it...

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keni 13 years ago said:

I've noticed, just since asking the question, several folks have posted new recipes and, in the description, said where they came from...that's great :)

still "borrowed" photos appearing on the front page as 'features', but, it's a start :)

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ladychablis 13 years ago said:

I completely agree , Peetabear. I was just thinking, how in the world could we actually make all the recipes we post?? I make many of them, but I like to post interesting-sounding recipes that may appeal to my cooking "freinds". Then we can all pick and choose what we like. just me.

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kristopher 13 years ago said:

Yeah it's not a hard and fast rule, but generally the "quality" of contribution is higher when the recipe was made by the uploader.

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kristopher 13 years ago said:

As mentioned though, there are certainly cases where there is benefit in sharing recipes you haven't made yet.

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peetabear 13 years ago said:

thank you Kristopher for giving the matter your consideration.....I really appreciate all the time and effort you have been giving the site to make it better and better...

I agree with Keni that you should tell where the source of the recipe and photo come from...I do not personally have a problem with a borrowed photo is a featured recipe...not everyone takes or has a camera to take their own photos....and I love seeing the finished product....but also if it is a photo from a magazine or cookbook it shows me what I should be striving for!!! and it most likely is not the mess I have come up with...!!!
But as Keni has pointed out the photo needs have the proper credit given...

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peetabear 13 years ago said:

AH... I just had a thought.... would it be possible to have photos have a line under them to give proper credit...that way if they are used as a featured photo it would give the photo credit and give the name of the poster...???

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keni 13 years ago said:

it's not so much about having a problem with them being a featured photo as it is that those photos belong to someone else... if it's not from someone who's given permission for the photos to be copied and posted, then that's a problem... I know it's already happened. Here, and on other sites, where someone who has a blog or another site has stumbled on a recipe featuring their photo...it may or may not even be a photos for THAT recipe, just a similar one... that's what's not okay. Linking to something is one thing, but copying a photo from someone elses' personal site could lead to other problems.

I am one who does make all the recipes I post, but I don't think it "has" to be done that way...... that's just my personal preference. I take photos of all the dishes I make...mine, or someone elses...and I've posted about 230 recipes of my own, mostly "original" and all but 3 or 4 photographed, in the last 2 years...and I've made and photographed 101 recipes from "friends"... do I think everyone should do that? No, but I do understand the issue of someone sitting down and copying recipe after recipe after recipes from magazines or other sites or whatever, just to get that number under their name, especially if they've never even known anyone who's made the recipe. :)

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kristopher 13 years ago said:

Keni, you are right on here. As mentioned, using another person's photo is not allowed (unless you have permission direct or indirect via a CC license). Plain and simple. It isn't a community guideline, it is a law. Most people inherently understand this, but others need a reminder. We've added a bullet point under the photo form (on second look, this needs to be a darker color). I think this should help.

There are a lot of tremendous blogs out there posting top-shelf recipes and photography, and we don't think the onus should be on them to patrol for people using their work. We think increased awareness here can prevent a lion's share of issues.

As far as scouring the web for similar recipes, that is a bit overboard IMO. If you came up with a recipe, post it. Even if it is similar to another one elsewhere, it can create a jumping off point for people to post alterations in their reviews, thusly creating a community modified version.

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peetabear 13 years ago said:

I apologize.... I misunderstood the photos in question.... I totally agree that the photos from a blog should not be used...
photos from a magazine etc is that a problem if credit is given???

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keni 13 years ago said:

yeah, it's overboard...but, that's me... I'm an investigative sociologist by trade... that makes me addicted to people and knowing how they work as well as the search and research aspect. I don't expect anyone else to follow my own ridiculous guidelines, have no worry. :) The only things in question were the photos and the exact copy/paste recipes without giving credit. That's it. If there's an exact recipe, to the letter, copied from a site, just say so... and, as I mentioned, I, personally, have noticed an increase in the "credit" given just since this thread was posted....otherwise, the photos... yeah...we've beaten that one to death, haven't we? :) You've addressed it... I do hope it goes heeded.

Thanks, as always, Kristopher.....especially for pointing out my borderline OCD... good on ya, sweets! ;) hehehe

meanie

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kristopher 13 years ago said:

@peetabear, *ANY* photos that you don't own (or have permission to use) are not allowed regardless of where they come from. I suspect most people uploading said photos are like yourself. You obviously meant no harm, but weren't quite clear on the rules.

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peetabear 13 years ago said:

thank you ... no I don't think any of us meant any harm and most of us gave reference to were the photo came from....now I feel comfortable posting recipes again...Kristopher some of us...like me ...needs to have some rules absolutely clear...LOL...

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